MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Half a world away from Australia, where people are reeling after what the prime minister is calling a terrorist attack. On Sunday, during a celebration for the first day of Hanukkah, a father and son opened fire on Bondi Beach near Sydney, killing or wounding dozens of people. Now, the Jewish community in Australia is small, just over 115,000 people in a country of more than 25 million. Still, antisemitism poses a persistent and rising threat. Deborah Lipstadt led the office of the special envoy to monitor and combat antisemitism under the Biden administration. She's with me now. Ambassador Lipstadt, welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Thank you very much, Mary Louise.
KELLY: So this awful attack on Sunday - it's one of several that have taken place since October 7, since the war - since Israel's war with Hamas began. Can you just walk us through the types of threats that Jewish community...
LIPSTADT: Sure.
KELLY: ...Faces in Australia?
LIPSTADT: It's one of several in Australia, but it's a phenomenon worldwide. Since October 7, there have been burnings of synagogues, arson of synagogues on five different continents, including in Australia in Melbourne. There have been persistent attacks on Jews eating in kosher or Jewish-style or Israeli restaurants. There have been attacks on Jews walking on the streets, including in Manhattan and in parts of - other parts of New York City. There is something going on that's not happenstance. I don't want to suggest to your listeners that there's some sort of giant conspiracy, but there is an effort, which was exemplified by two events, one in Australia and one on the Upper East Side of Manhattan.
The one in Australia was on October 9, 2023, two days after the Hamas attack on Israel, where, in front of the iconic Sydney Opera House, protesters march, chanting, you know, globalize the intifada - which most Jews interpret as harm Jews everywhere - from the river to the sea. Some say they chanted, gas the Jews. That's up for debate. But the thing that struck me most is their chant, where are the Jews? Where are the Jews? And I was reminded of that last month when I watched the clips outside of Park East Synagogue in New York, where, again, they chanted the chants that we've gotten used to, which are horrific. But then they also said, make them afraid. Make them afraid.
KELLY: So let me turn us to Australia and the questions that are emerging after this massacre. I think that's the accurate word.
LIPSTADT: Right.
KELLY: The questions being raised - Jews in Australia were aware that they were being targeted. Has the government of Australia done enough to protect the community?
LIPSTADT: When I was in office, and I've been out of office now since January. But when I was in office, I heard complaints. They're not doing enough. They're not taking it seriously. They say the right things, but the actions aren't happening.
KELLY: What should they do?
LIPSTADT: Well...
KELLY: What can they do?
LIPSTADT: What can they do? First of all, good security, but even more good investigations. One of the murderers, the son, was on their list for his association, apparently, with foreign groups. The details are just emerging. I don't have them all. But take this seriously. That's the whole thing. Take it seriously when people chant, gas the Jews. Look, you can't - there is freedom of speech, and I'm a tremendous advocate of freedom of speech. But when you hear these, where are the Jews, when you see demonstrations, when people attack restaurants, don't make light of it. Say this is something bigger.
KELLY: So just to be specific, and understanding that you are an expert on antisemitism, not on security for events...
LIPSTADT: That's right.
KELLY: ...But it sounds like what you're saying is, for an event like this, where we knew that there were going to be a lot of Jews gathered for a Hanukkah event, there should have been security, or there should have...
LIPSTADT: Much better security.
KELLY: ...Been better security than there was.
LIPSTADT: Much better security. But the thing to do is to prevent it ahead of time. And, you know, there's an atmosphere created. I'll go back to the phrase globalize the intifada. I know intifada has a meaning in Muslim theology of a certain kind, but the intifada means - references the attack on Jews - the first intifada and second intifada in Israel, in which thousands of Jews were murdered, some non-Jews, but primarily Jews were murdered. When they talk about globalize the intifada, don't discourage it. Don't say, oh, I can't condemn it, but I wouldn't use that term as some elected officials have said. That's giving you a green light. Condemn it outright.
KELLY: I do want to note Australia's prime minister, Prime Minister Albanese, has called what happened on Bondi Beach an act of pure evil - his words. He's also talked about things his government has done to try to fight antisemitism. He's noted, for example, setting up a federal police task force to investigate reports and incidents. Are those steps in the right direction?
LIPSTADT: They are the steps in the right direction, you know, maybe a little late but certainly in the right direction. And look, it's - the main effort, of course, has to be taken by government because this is a government issue. This is a criminal issue. This is murder and attacks, you know, criminal attacks. But it's got to be a whole of society approach, too. I mean, the only heartening thing to come out of this horrific, horrific attack was the fact that one of the shooters was brought down by a resident of Bondi Beach who happens to be a Muslim. And he did it - when you look at the video, he did it at the risk of his life. It didn't - like, he struggled with the man, and had the struggle gone a little bit differently, he might have been one of the victims.
KELLY: That's Deborah Lipstadt. She's a professor of Jewish history and Holocaust studies at Emory University. She served as the Biden administration's special envoy for monitoring antisemitism. Ambassador, thank you.
LIPSTADT: Thank you very much, Mary Louise. Take care.
KELLY: And you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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