SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
On the eve of the papal conclave, one of the big questions hanging in the air is whether the church will continue the path that Pope Francis set in softening its harsh positions on LGBTQ Catholics. Reverend James Martin has spent much of his career ministering to and advocating for this community. It's a ministry Pope Francis personally encouraged.
Thanks for meeting us.
JAMES MARTIN: Of course. Let's see if we can get a space in here.
DETROW: We met Father Martin at the Jesuit global headquarters, where he is staying for the conclave. He took us up to the roof, which opens up to a lush hillside Mediterranean garden...
MARTIN: This was Nero's wife's palace or something.
DETROW: ...And overlooks the square and St. Peter's Basilica.
MARTIN: Oh, let me show you the view. Oh, look, they have the curtains up already. That's so cool.
DETROW: Oh, yeah, those weren't up yesterday.
The ornate balcony where the next pope will first appear has been draped in red velvet curtains. It was overlooking that historic and symbolic setting where I asked him about what might happen next.
We're at that moment where the cardinals have not gone into the conclave yet. They're meeting every day. There's a lot of buzz around the city. Have you heard stray thoughts one way or another that give you a sense of kind of where that conversation is going among the people that matter?
MARTIN: Well, exactly what we were saying before, that they're thinking about the legacy of Pope Francis. Do they want someone sort of in his vein? Do they want someone who might be a little more sort of sedate - right? - bland, maybe even kind of an administrator? And what I've been hearing also is a surprising amount of cardinals being pretty blunt about their critiques of Pope Francis and also their critiques of the critiques of Pope Francis. So I think it's - which is good. They really are looking for someone who is holy, someone who's a good evangelizer and someone who's a good administrator. And frankly, those three things are hard to find in one person.
DETROW: We were interviewing people the other day at St. Mary Major, where, of course, Pope Francis' tomb is, and we talked to one person who I thought, like, really embodies this challenge the church faces. She's somebody who grew up in the church, playing the organ in the church. You could hear her talking about that that was a fond memory. But she said she's LGBTQ and she felt increasingly pushed out and pushed out and pushed out. And she said, I don't consider myself Catholic anymore because I felt alienated by this church. And I feel like that story plays out in so many places right now, and it's just been this incredible challenge for the church. And I know it's one that you've thought a lot about.
MARTIN: Yeah, there are a lot of people that feel that way. By the same token, there are a lot of people that feel, under Francis, they've had this experience of welcome. I would say Francis probably did more for LGBTQ people - well, not probably - than all of his predecessors combined, right? The first pope ever to use the word gay, came out against the criminalization of homosexuality. He met with LGBTQ people. He met with me and other people who minister to them. So I think there is still this sense of alienation, but I think it really diminished under Francis.
DETROW: I've heard you talk about this over the past few weeks. I've seen you write about it. How do you think of his lasting legacy when it comes to this? - because there were so many gestures and statements that were welcoming. But then there's critics who say, well, when you look at the formal teachings, when you look at the writings, the rule-setting, not much did change.
MARTIN: Well, I think the approach changed, and that's a kind of teaching itself - so his changing the conversation, the way he treated LGBTQ people. But actually, he did change some things. So the ability to bless same-sex couples, I mean, that's a change. The decriminalization of homosexuality, that's a change. One thing I want to say is - that I think the media tended to overlook - in the last few years of his life, he used to meet regularly with transgender people. It was kind of under the radar, but that's a big deal. I mean - and at his entombment, you could say, at St. Mary Major, there was a representative from the transgender community officially there, you know, at the invitation of the Vatican. So that's a change, and that would not have happened before Francis.
DETROW: You mentioned the blessing of same-sex couples. Though that, of course, quickly became a nonstarter in Africa due to pretty swift measures by African cardinals. And I think that gets to this tension point in the church - and I'm curious what you think the path forward is - that when you look at the parts of the world where the church is most rapidly growing, there's real resistance to things like that from parishioners, from leaders, including from some cardinals who could be in contention to be the next pope. How do you think the church moves forward, keeping those views in mind, but also being welcoming, not being - frankly, some people would say at times - hateful toward people who are gay?
MARTIN: Right, and it is a breaking point. I think by balancing the tension between what you might call prophecy and unity. Unity is a value in the church. We don't want to split the church over any issue. By the same token, we have to stand up for people who are being marginalized. I always say there were two trends in the church in the last 12 years for LGBTQ people. One was Pope Francis - right? - and that trend is over, in terms of his gestures and who he appointed as cardinals. The other trend, though, is as more and more people come out - right? - and more and more Catholics come out, their families are changed, their parishes are changed, priests are changed, bishops are changed. And that trend is not going to stop. People are going to continue to come out.
So it is a frustration that there are many places where cardinals and bishops are pretty homophobic and pretty, I would say, sometimes mean to LGBTQ people. And I think that really has to change. The only way that's going to change, frankly, for these church leaders is encounter. This is one of the reasons Pope Francis was so big on the culture of encounter. It's coming to know people. That's basically it.
DETROW: You've written a lot of books. You're one of the most prominent priests in the United States. Why did you decide that this was something that you wanted to focus on and really create a ministry reaching out to LGBTQ people?
MARTIN: Well, it's funny. I didn't really decide it. I didn't get up one morning and say I want to do this super-controversial ministry. In fact, it's - I don't like controversy. After the Pulse nightclub massacre in 2016, when 49 people were killed in a gay nightclub, I just saw the bishop's response, in my own opinion, as pretty tepid. And I thought, boy, you know, what does this community have to do to get the attention of the church? Is it not enough that they're murdered? So I gave a talk and then wrote a book called "Building A Bridge," and that led into this ministry. So I didn't really get up and decide one day to do this. It just sort of happened. But at each turning point, I think it's important for me to say, I sought approval from my Jesuit superiors and then eventually met with the pope who said, in 2019, I want you to continue this ministry in peace. And so that's what I've tried to do.
DETROW: In this moment where we don't know who the next pope will be, a lot of people who deeply appreciated that approach that Pope Francis took are worried that the next pope will not be like that, will reverse course on so many things. You wrote an article, the headline was something along the lines of "Don't Fear The Outcome Of The Next Conclave," addressed to people who are worried. What did you say?
MARTIN: Well, I can only approach that from a spiritual point of view, which is to remind people that the Holy Spirit is not exactly, you know, picking the pope, but he's guiding the process. And then we have to trust that the cardinals are opening themselves up to the activity of the Holy Spirit and really are trying to find the man who they think is the best. And look, these are very prayerful people. They spent their whole life in service to the church, in service to Jesus, and they want the best guy. It may seem political, but we really have to trust in the process. And, you know, as a Jesuit, you know, we will work with whoever steps out on that balcony in a couple of days.
DETROW: Father James Martin, S.J., thank you so much for talking to us.
MARTIN: My pleasure.
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