DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Today, we remember James Burrows, one of the most respected and sought-after directors of TV comedies. In over five decades, he directed more than a thousand episodes - episodes of "Taxi," "Cheers," "Friends," "Frasier," "Will & Grace" and many other sitcoms. Burrows died June 19 at the age of 85.
A statement by the Directors Guild of America described him as an incredibly generous colleague, sharing his wisdom and warm humor with all he worked with. In a statement, his family said, Burrows understood that great comedy was never simply about laughter. It was about humanity, connection and truth. We're going to listen to Terry's 2006 interview with James Burrows in a few minutes. But first, we have this appreciation by our TV critic David Bianculli.
DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: James Burrows was born in LA in 1940 but didn't live there long. His family moved to New York when he was 5. His father, Abe Burrows, had written for radio and television but found his biggest success on Broadway as a director and especially as a writer. Abe Burrows wrote the books for the musicals "Guys And Dolls," "How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying" and "Can-Can." His son, James, became a director, too, but went back to Los Angeles to do so. His big break was directing an episode of "The Mary Tyler Moore Show," after which James Burrows landed jobs directing multiple episodes of many popular sitcoms of the 1970s, including "The Bob Newhart Show," "The Tony Randall Show," "Laverne & Shirley" and "Taxi."
By the time he co-created "Cheers" with Glen and Les Charles in 1982, James Burrows was considered the best sitcom director in the business, a title he maintained for decades. The reasons were obvious. James Burrows made one of the most significant improvements to the sitcom genre since "I Love Lucy" popularized the three-camera format of shooting before a studio audience. Burrows added a fourth camera, which allowed him to capture more close-ups and frame the action as naturally as he could. Burrows was a master at setting the tone for a new series, working with young actors to shape their characters and find just the right comic flow. Over his career, he won 11 Emmy Awards and directed a staggering number of TV pilots - specifically, 75.
But it isn't just the quantity of premiere episodes directed by James Burrows that's so amazing. It's the quality. He directed the introductory episodes of "Taxi," "Cheers" and "Frasier" - not just the original 1993 "Frasier," but the 2023 remake as well, 30 years later. He also directed the first episodes of "The Big Bang Theory," "Night Court," "Wings," "NewsRadio," "3rd Rock From The Sun," "Dharma & Greg," "Two And A Half Men," "Friends" and "Will & Grace." And sometimes, James Burrows stuck around for quite a while - for more than 200 episodes of both "Will & Grace" and "Cheers" and 75 episodes of "Taxi."
For me, the absolute best example of Jim Burrows' gifts as a TV director came in a 1979 episode of "Taxi," written by Glen and Les Charles. It was an episode written to showcase Christopher Lloyd, who had guest-starred in a previous episode as Reverend Jim, a hippie preacher from the '60s who was laid-back, confused and dealing with a long history of recreational drug use. At the time, Reverend Jim was an outrageous character to introduce to a primetime TV show. But "Taxi" already had triumphed by mixing types of comic styles that shouldn't have worked.
Judd Hirsch, Tony Danza, Marilu Henner, Andy Kaufman, Jeff Conaway, Danny DeVito - all were part of the Brooklyn cab outfit that was eager for Reverend Jim to join its ranks. But to do that, he'd have to go to the DMV and pass a driver's exam, not just behind the wheel but on paper. It's in that DMV office where Burrows helped shape what I consider the funniest scene in TV history. He allows the comedy to build at its own pace and encourages the young Christopher Lloyd to steal the show as Reverend Jim. And most important of all, James Burrows places his cameras and frames the action to catch it all - not only intense close-ups of an increasingly frustrated Reverend Jim but group shots capturing the reactions of Jeff Conaway's Bobby, Marilu Henner's Elaine and everyone else trying to help him take the test. Bobby tries to speed things up by reading the application to Reverend Jim as Elaine stands nearby.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "TAXI")
JEFF CONAWAY: (As Bobby Wheeler) Here, let me help you out, OK? All right. Have you ever experienced loss of consciousness, hallucinations, dizzy spells, convulsive disorders, fainting or periods of loss of memory?
CHRISTOPHER LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) Well, hasn't everyone?
(LAUGHTER)
MARILU HENNER: (As Elaine Nardo) Put no.
CONAWAY: (As Bobby Wheeler) Mental illness or narcotic addiction?
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) Now, that's a tough choice.
(LAUGHTER)
HENNER: (As Elaine Nardo) Just put no.
CONAWAY: (As Bobby Wheeler) OK. That's it. You're ready for the test.
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) I thought this was the test.
(LAUGHTER)
HENNER: (As Elaine Nardo) No, no, no. This is the application.
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) Oh, man.
(LAUGHTER)
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) Hey, it's getting rougher and rougher.
BIANCULLI: Eventually, Reverend Jim gets a copy of the test, slumps in his classroom-style desk and gets stuck on the first question. His cabbie friends are standing on the other side of the room, but he asks for help anyway, louder and more angrily every time. Christopher Lloyd is brilliant, and Burrows lets the scene build and flow. And listen to the studio audience. They're not just laughing. They're howling.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "TAXI")
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) Psst. What does a yellow light mean?
CONAWAY: (As Bobby Wheeler) Slow down.
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) OK. What...
(LAUGHTER)
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) Does a...
(LAUGHTER)
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) Yellow light mean?
CONAWAY: (As Bobby Wheeler) Slow down.
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) OK. What...
(LAUGHTER)
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) Does...
(LAUGHTER)
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) A...
CONAWAY: (As Bobby Wheeler) Slow down.
(LAUGHTER)
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) What...
(LAUGHTER)
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) Does...
(LAUGHTER)
LLOYD: (As Reverend Jim) A yellow...
BIANCULLI: I'm guessing you had your own favorite memories and favorite laughs from a sitcom directed by James Burrows - from "Friends," from "Cheers," from "Frasier," from "Big Bang Theory" or from so many others. And that's the point, really. The legacy of James Burrows, no matter where you look, is bound to make you smile.
DAVIES: David Bianculli is our TV critic. Terry Gross spoke to James Burrows in 2006. He got his start in television directing episodes of "The Mary Tyler Moore Show," "The Bob Newhart Show," and "Laverne & Shirley." But before that, he worked on some of his father's musicals. His father, Abe Burrows, wrote the books for the musicals "Guys And Dolls," "How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying" and "Cactus Flower."
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
JAMES BURROWS: I was an assistant stage manager or an assistant to the assistant on an ill-fated musical called "Breakfast At Tiffany's," where I met Mary Tyler Moore. And Mary Tyler Moore and Richard Chamberlain were the stars. And I went on subsequently to stage-manage for my father on "Cactus Flower," the production on the road, and then in New York City in "Forty Carats." So I got to see my father, who really wrote on his feet because he would write a scene. And then when he would get in rehearsal, he would change the scene just on his feet. And you began to see how fascinating he was.
And that's when I - you know, I kind of have his style of directing. I'm a listener. I'm not necessarily a watcher. And Abe would always - he would say to me, when he went to a run-through of one of his shows or went to see one of his shows in the theater, he would always walk behind the set. He wouldn't watch because he wanted to know that there was always noise happening onstage. He listened for the noise. He knew if there was no noise, that he was in trouble. So I do that when I direct my shows. So that - you know, that is the essence of the experience with my father. I - in subsequent years, a lot of his gift and a lot of his skills seem to come out of me at the strangest times. It's not like I learned them as much as, you know, they were like osmosis. I absorbed them, and they kind of seep out of my skin in certain situations.
TERRY GROSS: So when you're directing a TV show, you're sometimes backstage and not looking at the action or at the monitor?
BURROWS: Well, I don't - I never look at the monitor because it's about - the shows I do are in front of a live audience, so it's about the play. It's about what's happening there. I've been doing it long enough to know that I don't have to worry about the camera shots because I know they'll all be there. So I listen and watch. You know, I'll walk behind the cameras not watching the action, necessarily. But a lot - you know, most of the time, I watch the play because - and I make my writers watch the play, or they can watch the cut on the screen. But they don't watch the quad split. A quad split is a television screen that has the four cameras that I use to shoot the show on that. And if they watch the quad split, they're always worried about mics in shots and shots not matching. So I make all the writers watch the play because that's eventually what makes a hit show.
GROSS: So what made you realize that you wanted to switch from the stage to television?
BURROWS: In the course of doing "Cactus Flowers" and "Forty Carats" around the country, I would work at a lot of dinner theaters, a lot of regional - not regional theater - dinner theaters, summer stock theaters. I would do these - not situation comedies - comedies. You know, "Odd Couple," "Barefoot In The Park," even "Blithe Spirit" I did. I'm trying to think. "Never Too Late" - all these plays, the comedies that had been on Broadway, and I'd do them with stars. And I had about eight days to stage the whole thing, and I could get it done. I was good at that.
And then one night, I was at home after rehearsal, and I turned on the television. There was "The Mary Tyler Moore Show," and they were doing 20 minutes a week in front of a live audience. And here I was doing 120 minutes a week to get ready for a live audience. And I thought I could do that. I thought I could translate my skills onstage to the skills required to do that television show because it was like filming a theatrical show.
So I wrote a letter to Mary Tyler Moore. As I said before, I had the connection because I was a stage manager on her first Broadway show, so she kind of knew me. And Grant Tinker called me, and he said, we're interested in theatrical directors at MTM. Would you come out and do one show? And I don't know what's faster than a New York second, but whatever it was, I said yes. And I was - that - and the rest is history.
DAVIES: James Burrows speaking with Terry Gross in 2006. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with TV director James Burrows, who directed over 1,000 episodes of "Cheers," "Taxi," "Frasier," "Friends" and other sitcoms. He died last week at the age of 85.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
GROSS: So you got started directing MTM productions like "The Bob Newhart Show," "Mary Tyler Moore Show," "Phyllis," yes?
BURROWS: Yes. Yes.
GROSS: Now, were you at first, like, understudying other directors? Or did they let you just go at it?
BURROWS: Well, the first thing you have to do is you have to learn the technical stuff. So they brought me out here, and you kind of have to observe. Being an observer is, you sit in the stands, and you watch a week of rehearsals. And the first three days are with actors and writers alone. And the fourth day, the cameras come in, and the fifth day, you shoot the show. And for me, with actors and writers, I kind of got that. It was when the cameras came in that it became daunting. So I watch for maybe two months straight. I watched the Newhart show. Then I went over to "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" and I watched Jay Sandrich, who to me is the true genius of this medium.
I watched him and became very good friends with him. And so I kind of started to get a knowledge of what to do with cameras, how to figure them out. And then they assigned me to a show called "Friends And Lovers," which was the Paul Sand show. And I would coach - I was Paul Sand's dialogue coach. I would help him run lines. But in a time when I wasn't doing that, I would watch cameras. And eventually, they called me and they said, we're going to give you a shot. And I figured it would be on the Paul Sand show, and all of a sudden, it was "The Mary Tyler Moore Show."
GROSS: Do you remember that first show that you did?
BURROWS: I do. Vividly.
GROSS: How did it go?
BURROWS: I do.
GROSS: What sticks out in your mind?
BURROWS: Oh, my God. Well, we read the script. It was a show where Lou Grant moves into Rhoda's apartment. So he's living above Mary, which means that he - they work together and they live together, which wasn't good for their relationship. And so we read the script around the table, and it was a D-minus. It was awful. And I said to Grant, I said, in the sea of Danish, I get a bagel.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURROWS: And it was literally just a - the show was awful. I mean, the initial reading, they made it better 'cause you would rewrite. The writers would rewrite all the time. And so I had to go down - back in those days, you rehearsed immediately after you read. You just went down and started running scenes. And so I was dealing with a cast who hated the script, too, and yet I had to run these scenes. And so I would do it. And I can't tell you - I invoked Chekhov, I invoked Strindberg, I invoked Kaufman and Hart. I did anything to try to ease it for them, to try to come up with some comic business, anything that would help them get through this process.
And so I was working the first three days with the actors and cameras. And I guess we finally got the show in some sort of semblance. And then the cameras came in, and that was daunting enough for me. It was very difficult. I did it on my own. I didn't want any help. And on the fifth day, just before we shot, Mary Tyler Moore came over to me, and they said, we feel our investment in you has worked out. And that was even before I shot the show. And I couldn't have been higher, figuratively.
And we shot the show, and it turned out all right. And Jay Sandrich was there and helped me a little bit. And the minute that show was over, I got two Newharts and I got a Bob Crane and a Paul Sand. And next year, I was on the "Phyllis" show. So I was on my way.
GROSS: Was the show as bad after it was shot as it was when you were doing the reading?
BURROWS: It was - it's a C-plus show. It's not a very good show. You know, I - in fact, the script after me won an Emmy. So I...
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURROWS: By the luck of the draw, I got - I didn't get the Emmy show. I got an OK show. And it might've helped me because of the amount of work I had to do and the amount of talking and inspiring I had to do, might've - in hindsight, might've really helped me succeed in there and impress the actors.
GROSS: OK. So you start off at MTM in television. And then you do "Taxi." And about how many episodes would you estimate you did of "Taxi?"
BURROWS: I think I did 75.
GROSS: And you were there right from the beginning with "Taxi," right?
BURROWS: I was there. It was after - no, I kind of left MTM after about three or four years and started to go other places. I went on "Laverne & Shirley," where I had a ball, although that was a tough show. And then I did a show with Ned Beatty. I was all a hired hand. I didn't do many pilots or anything like that. And then the boys from MTM - Ed Weinberger, Jim Brooks, Stan Daniels and Dave Davis - had created a show called "Taxi." And they called me to direct it. And probably the most difficult show I ever did because the cast was so divergent. The writing was so outrageous. The set was so gigantic.
And I - it was my first really big show where I was in charge from the beginning. But it was like, getting all these egos in the same room, there wasn't a room big enough. And it was a struggle. And yet, I was heard. I got out there and I said what I wanted to say, and I was heard. It was tough at times to be heard, but I fought. And the great thing about that show was that the producers of that show and the head writers were Glen Charles and Les Charles, who I'd first met on "Phyllis." And then they were brought in on "Taxi."
So we struck up a friendship. We were both handled by the same agent, and he thought it would be good for us to do a show together. So I think about the third year of "Taxi," we started to think about a show. But "Taxi," if you go back and watch that show, there is some of the funniest television I think I've ever done. The standard out of that show is Reverend Jim, what does the yellow light mean? Slow Down. And that is, to me, one of the biggest laughs I had ever done on "Taxi." And so I have fond memories of that show. It was also a great learning experience.
DAVIES: James Burrows speaking with Terry Gross in 2006. He died last week at the age of 85. Here's one of the scenes from Episode 3 of "Cheers," with Ted Danson and Shelley Long, which Burrows directed.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "CHEERS")
SHELLEY LONG: (As Diane Chambers) Why are you so upset?
TED DANSON: (As Sam Malone) You know, this week, I have gone out with all the women I know. I mean, all the women I really enjoyed. And all of a sudden, all I can think about is how stupid they are. I mean, my life isn't fun anymore and it's because of you.
LONG: (As Diane Chambers) Because of me?
DANSON: (As Sam Malone) Yeah. You're a snob.
LONG: (As Diane Chambers) A snob?
DANSON: (As Sam Malone) Yeah, that's right.
LONG: (As Diane Chambers) Well, you're a rapidly aging adolescent.
DANSON: (As Sam Malone) Well, I would rather be that than a snob.
LONG: (As Diane Chambers) And I would rather be a snob.
(LAUGHTER)
DANSON: (As Sam Malone) Well, good, because you are.
LONG: (As Diane Chambers) Sam, do yourself a favor, go back to your tootsies and your rat parts. I'd hate to see the bowling alleys close on my account.
(LAUGHTER)
DANSON: (As Sam Malone) Hey, hey, wait. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Are you saying that I'm too dumb to date smart women?
LONG: (As Diane Chambers) I'm saying that it would be very difficult for you. A really intelligent woman would see your line of BS a mile away.
DANSON: (As Sam Malone) You think so?
LONG: (As Diane Chambers) Uh-huh, uh-huh.
(LAUGHTER)
DANSON: (As Sam Malone) Yeah. Well, you know, I've never met an intelligent woman that I'd want to date.
LONG: (As Diane Chambers) On behalf of the intelligent women around the world, may I just say, phew.
(LAUGHTER)
DAVIES: Coming up, we'll hear about Burrows' work on "Cheers" and "Frasier." And later, Justin Chang reviews the new film "The Invite." I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "CHEERS THEME SONG (TV VERSION)")
GARY PORTNOY: (Singing) Making your way in the world today takes everything you've got. Taking a break from all your worries sure would help a lot. Wouldn't you like to get away? Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name and they're always glad you came.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. We're remembering James Burrows, who was one of the most respected TV directors in the business. He directed over a thousand episodes of "Cheers," "Taxi," "Friends," "Frasier," "Will & Grace" and also "The Big Bang Theory," "3rd Rock From The Sun," "Mike & Molly" and "Two Broke Girls." Burrows died last week at the age of 85. He spoke with Terry Gross in 2006.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
GROSS: Now, after "Taxi," you left with a couple of the creators of "Taxi," Glen Charles and Les Charles, and started "Cheers." And on "Cheers" and on "Taxi," you had a chance to direct characters from the very start and therefore to shape them, to help shape them through your direction, as opposed to inheriting characters on an already existing series. Can you talk a little bit about what it's like to actually create a character from scratch - a character that you hope will endure for years in a series?
BURROWS: Well, the first thing that has to happen, it has to be on the page. So I am very careful when I select scripts. And when we talked about - Glen, Les and I talked about doing "Cheers," we spent two months talking about these characters, and then the boys went off and wrote the script. And when - a month later, when I read it, it was - I said to the boys, you have brought radio back to television, which is what they did. They wrote a really smart show that literally could have been a radio show because there wasn't that much movement. It was all about attitudes and all about intonations and nuances and stuff like that. And I...
GROSS: Can I just stop you? That would be a terrible insult to a lot of people. If you said - there are a lot of TV people. If you said to them, you've just produced this brilliant radio show - you've just written a brilliant radio show - they would think that was a terrible insult 'cause they're working on television. And sometimes, when you say radio to television people, it's like saying, you don't know what you're doing. You're blind. You can hear, but you're blind.
BURROWS: No. If you watch that show, people cross occasionally. Norm comes into the bar, but you got to listen to that show. It's all about listening.
GROSS: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
BURROWS: And there's no eye candy in that show. There's no - I'll never forget. Originally, the boys in the first draft had some kind of hurdle race in there that we took out. But it was. They came in. They sat down. They told their stories. And that's what it is. You could have done that show on radio. It would - you wouldn't have had to worry about how the actors looked, as long as their voices were good. But it was a television show. But when I meant brought radio to television was it was smart. It was a smart show. It was an upscale, smart show with jokes about Schopenhauer and Updike and Freud and Jung. And we didn't care if the audience knew who those people were. And they - it was a genius job.
And so it was my job to shape this cast. You cast them. You cast these people individually, but you don't know what you have until you put them together. So I always - in pilots, I always will begin by sitting around a big table. And in fact, on "Cheers," we sat around the bar, and we talked about where everybody came from, their characters. You know, I carried a conversation on with Sam and Diane and Norm and Cliff and everybody like that, and we talked. And it's not only good for me. It's good for the actors because they're going to want to talk anyway. And if I can do it now and get them to talk and get them - they'll only grow into the roles more.
So we spent - you know, we spent half a day just sitting around, all - probably a day sitting around talking, and then I went to work on it. And it was - you know, I did 240 out of, like, 275 shows, and I had a great time. I loved that show. That's - to me, that's my baby. And I was there from the beginning for the cast, and I was there at the end, and they trusted me. And we - you know, we - after a while, we knew what worked and what didn't work. We didn't have to spend a lot of time on stuff that didn't work. And we - you know, we could make the stuff work that worked really quickly.
GROSS: Now, "Cheers" was shot in front of a live audience. Do the laughs help the actors, and does it ever work against the show? In other words, like - 'cause the actors can't, like, pick up and say the next line until the laughs fade. And of course, the audience at home isn't in the studio audience. So the timing - do you think the timing when you're watching at home is any different than the timing when you're in the theater?
BURROWS: Well, laughter is communal, so it really helps to have an audience because movies are so much better. I try to go see comedies in a theater rather than try to watch them at home in the movies because you just - it's really tough to laugh at home. Or I'll get the family in to watch, and then you can all laugh. But it's infectious, and it's communal. So those were true laughs, and you can tell they're true laughs 'cause you can see the actors' eyes glint on "Cheers." The - you can see the glint in their eyes, the excitement in hearing such a big reaction to something they've said. And they had to wait to be heard. And sometimes they wouldn't wait, and I'd have to back up and say, you know, let's go back a little bit, and so they would be heard. But those are true laughs. That show was a truly funny show.
GROSS: OK. Well, say you had to back up because they were unheard, or say you want another take because it didn't work, what happens when the audience is hearing the joke the second time, and their laughter is not going to be the same the second time around? They've already heard the joke. They've already laughed at it.
BURROWS: But you're - yeah, they've laughed at that joke, but then you go the second time so that you can get the reaction of the other person to that joke. And then you can hear the other line from the person because they have previously said it into a laugh, and you didn't hear it. So that's why you have to do that. But you'll use the first take of that joke because the laughter was so big. And...
GROSS: So do you ever use the laughter from one take and roll it for a second take?
BURROWS: So yeah. You use - you - when you cross takes, you'll take the laughter from the first take and play it over the reaction in the second take.
GROSS: Right, right.
BURROWS: You have to do that, otherwise you couldn't make sense of the show or people saying lines into laughs. You have to hear every line. So we didn't do that a lot. Back in the "Cheers" days, we only ran the scene twice. I would back up occasionally if somebody said something and laughed. But we didn't run the scene twice like we do now. We ran the "Cheers" scenes only once, and then I would go back if we missed something or we wanted to change one joke. I would go back and just shoot a piece of the scene again. On "Will & Grace," we do every scene twice, and in between each scene, the writers rewrite some jokes.
GROSS: Really?
BURROWS: Yeah.
GROSS: So the audience gets to hear - gets to see two different versions of the scene?
BURROWS: Yes. It - if you're going to do a scene twice, it really helps to change the jokes.
GROSS: Is that typical that the writers are on the set? Typical for you, maybe.
BURROWS: Oh, yeah.
GROSS: Is it typical for other shows?
BURROWS: Oh, yeah. I - any sitcom, you got to see what - I mean, if you're not on the set, you don't know whether the show bombs or not. You got to be there to see. It's either your - it's either euphoria or it's your funeral, but you got to be there. And you got to fix what doesn't work because that's going off on - that's going on the air. And you don't want something that's no good going on the air, so you better fix it.
DAVIES: James Burrows speaking with Terry Gross, recorded in 2006. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to Terry's 2006 interview with TV director James Burrows, who directed over a thousand episodes of "Cheers," "Taxi," "Friends," "Frasier" and other sitcoms. He died last week.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
GROSS: Now, you know, we were talking about "Cheers." And, of course, after "Cheers," you worked on the spin-off "Frasier" and you directed...
BURROWS: Right.
GROSS: ...Lots of episodes of that. You were there right at the start. Why was Frasier the character that you all decided to spin off?
BURROWS: We didn't. I did not spin him off. David Angell, Peter Casey and David Lee, who were the producers of "Cheers" for years, had talked to Kelsey about doing a spin-off. So they wrote the script. And they spun him off. They asked us if he - if they could. And we said, sure. And they wrote a brilliant script. They - their genius in that script was taking an actor who had this incredible ability, which Kelsey has, and taking Frasier, making him Sam Malone - because he had to be the center - and taking David Hyde Pierce as Niles and making him Frasier.
So that was brilliant on their part. And the tone of that show was brilliant, too, the so much more upper crust than "Cheers" because other than Martin, the father, there was no other Sam Malones or Norms or Cliffs on that show. They were all upper-crust, smart people. And they did a brilliant job. And I directed the pilot, which was huge. And I think I directed about 20, 25 episodes. They did a great job, and they had a great actor in the lead and a great cast.
GROSS: I want to play a short scene from the pilot which you directed of "Frasier." And this is a scene from early in the episode. Niles and Frasier are at a coffee shop, and Niles is suggesting it's time to find a convalescent home for their father to live in.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FRASIER")
DAVID HYDE PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) We have a problem, and that's why I thought we should talk.
KELSEY GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) Is it Dad?
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) Afraid so. One of his bold buddies from the police force called this morning. He went over to see him and found him on the bathroom floor.
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) Oh, my God.
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) No. It's OK. He's fine.
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) What? His hip again?
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) Frasier, I don't think he can live alone anymore.
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) What can we do?
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) Well, I know this isn't going to be anyone's favorite solution, but I took the liberty of checking out a few convalescent homes for him.
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) Niles, a home? He's still a young man.
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) Well, you certainly can't take care of him. You're just getting your new life together.
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) Absolutely. Well, besides, we were never simpatico.
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) Of course, I can't take care of him.
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) Oh, yes, yes, of course, of course. Why?
(LAUGHTER)
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) Because Dad doesn't get along with Maris.
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) Who does?
(LAUGHTER)
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) I thought you liked my Maris.
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) I do. I like her from a distance, you know, the way you like the sun. Maris is like the sun, except without the warmth.
(LAUGHTER)
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) Well, then, we're agreed about what to do with Dad. Golden Acres - we care so you don't have to.
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) It says that?
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) Well, it might as well.
(LAUGHTER)
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) All right. I'll make up the spare bedroom.
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) Oh. You're a good son, Frasier.
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) Oh, God, I am, aren't I?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As waitress) Two cafe supremos. Anything to eat?
GRAMMER: (As Frasier Crane) No, I seem to have lost my appetite.
PIERCE: (As Niles Crane) I'll have a large piece of cheesecake.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: It's a scene from the pilot of "Frasier" directed by my guest James Burrows. And, you know, great scene, great series. One of the things that's really interesting to me about that scene and about, like, you know, the early "Frasier" is that Niles sounds completely different than he did later on. He is not talking with that, you know, kind of effete clipped style of speech that he develops later in the series.
BURROWS: I did not notice that. I always thought that he was - there was no other word to describe Niles than a feat for me because he was a personification of Frasier, and Frasier was certainly a feat on "Cheers." So I did not know that. I guess I - well, you know what? Niles was a minor character. If you talk to the boys, originally, Niles only had one scene in the pilot and he was an afterthought. They thought the strong relationship would be between father and son. And then because of David, that part expanded rapidly. And thank God 'cause it was a wonderful relationship.
GROSS: Now, you know, a lot of people thought that Niles and Frasier were really two gay men cast as brothers. Do you know what I mean? That the brothers was just a cover that these were - this is a story about really two gay guys. Did you feel that way when you were directing it?
BURROWS: Oh, yeah. It's a husband and wife, those two.
GROSS: OK.
BURROWS: They are. They're a couple. They're a couple. And it's great. I never thought gay as much as a married couple. They talk like a married couple, a snobbish married couple, an effete married couple. So I totally agree with that.
GROSS: Now, on "Will & Grace," there really is a gay character, and it was among the first, really popular gay regular characters in - on sitcoms and on broadcast. Were there issues about how broad to make the character, and, you know, how the character should be depicted?
BURROWS: Well, you know, the genius of that show is the script, is that Max and David wrote a script where there's a love affair between a woman and a man that can't be consummated. So the dialogue is brilliant in that script and very smart. So you have a gay man who you don't play gay, which gives you the liberty to play gay with the other character, with Jack. Jack can be incredibly outrageous because Will is not. Will, you know, he gives you credibility, mainly among the gay community because I think if Will wasn't on the show, we would get notes - we'd get letters from the gay community about how Jack's portrayed, how that character's portrayed.
But because of Will, it allows us to do that. So I always thought of the show as a really funny show that happens to have two gay characters in it. And I firmly believed that, you know, the pilot was through the roof when we ran it in front of an audience. They loved it. We shot it. They loved it. And I went to the network and I said, please don't put us this - don't put us after "Seinfeld." We cannot survive there because people are not going to watch us. Please put us somewhere where we can kind of sneak into town and people can, you know, find us eventually because there's no reason to watch this show.
And then I wanted - there's a kiss in the pilot between Will and Grace. And I wanted that in there because I felt that if we could convince the part of the country that doesn't appreciate gays or does not like gays or has some problems with gays, if we could convince that part of the country that maybe Will will take the super drugs and get over his gayness and marry Grace...
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURROWS: ...And if they - if we let them think that they'll get together, that they maybe tune in to watch the show because they've heard how funny it was. And then once they're in there and see how funny it is, they're never going to leave.
GROSS: So are you really glad you've been able to have a career in TV?
BURROWS: I've been blessed. I did - in 1981, I tried a movie. I - if I had tried it in '91, the movie probably been more successful because I would have had much more self-esteem than I had in '81. This is before "Cheers." I didn't like the process 'cause it took two years to get a result. I didn't like the hours. I'm not a guy who's meticulous with how the set looks and doing each scene three times so that you can then cut it. I'm a guy who likes to do it live in front of an audience. And I have been blessed to be able to work in this medium that I - I don't have to work anymore. I didn't have to do "Will & Grace." I'm financially sound, and - but I do it because I love it. I do it because "Will & Grace" makes me feel 20 years younger. I've been in the business about 35 years, so I just turned 25 last year. That's how old I am.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BURROWS: And I love laughing. I love to hear the laughter. I've done - I've been lucky enough to be associated with some extraordinary shows and shows that may not be as extraordinary, but were so wonderful, like "NewsRadio," which I did the pilot of, and "3rd Rock" with Johnny Lithgow. And I've had, you know, these wonderful shows, and it just - I'm going to go on next year. I'm not - when "Will & Grace" is off the air, I'm going to try to find another show 'cause I have so much fun doing it.
GROSS: Well, James Burrows, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you so much for all of the great programs that you've given us. Thank you.
BURROWS: And thank you for some questions I've never been asked before.
DAVIES: TV director James Burrows speaking with Terry Gross in 2006. Burrows died June 19 at the age of 85. Burrows played a fictional version of himself in the HBO series "The Comeback," starring Lisa Kudrow. In his last appearance in May, his character is asked to direct a pilot of a show written by AI, and he makes a plea for the creativity and unpredictability of human scriptwriters.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE COMEBACK")
BURROWS: (As Jimmy Burrows) Surprising only comes from a group of writers huddled in a corner, beating themselves up to beat out a better joke.
LISA KUDROW: (As Valerie Cherish) OK. But...
BURROWS: (As Jimmy Burrows) No, no, no. Val, it's the chubby guy who's a secret alcoholic. It's the gay guy who, despite all the work he's done, still hates himself a little.
KUDROW: (As Valerie Cherish) Yeah.
BURROWS: (As Jimmy Burrows) Or the funny woman who has been invisible for way too long. They turn all that pain into a joke. And, Val, those broken, beautiful souls are what make something great.
DAVIES: Coming up, Justin Chang reviews the new film "The Invite." This is FRESH AIR. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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